Dan Solove on Privacy Regulation

Law professor Dan Solove has a new article on privacy regulation. In his email to me, he writes: “I’ve been pondering privacy consent for more than a decade, and I think I finally made a breakthrough with this article.” His mini-abstract:

In this Article I argue that most of the time, privacy consent is fictitious. Instead of futile efforts to try to turn privacy consent from fiction to fact, the better approach is to lean into the fictions. The law can’t stop privacy consent from being a fairy tale, but the law can ensure that the story ends well. I argue that privacy consent should confer less legitimacy and power and that it be backstopped by a set of duties on organizations that process personal data based on consent.

Full abstract:

Consent plays a profound role in nearly all privacy laws. As Professor Heidi Hurd aptly said, consent works “moral magic”—it transforms things that would be illegal and immoral into lawful and legitimate activities. As to privacy, consent authorizes and legitimizes a wide range of data collection and processing.

There are generally two approaches to consent in privacy law. In the United States, the notice-and-choice approach predominates; organizations post a notice of their privacy practices and people are deemed to consent if they continue to do business with the organization or fail to opt out. In the European Union, the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) uses the express consent approach, where people must voluntarily and affirmatively consent.

Both approaches fail. The evidence of actual consent is non-existent under the notice-and-choice approach. Individuals are often pressured or manipulated, undermining the validity of their consent. The express consent approach also suffers from these problems ­ people are ill-equipped to decide about their privacy, and even experts cannot fully understand what algorithms will do with personal data. Express consent also is highly impractical; it inundates individuals with consent requests from thousands of organizations. Express consent cannot scale.

In this Article, I contend that most of the time, privacy consent is fictitious. Privacy law should take a new approach to consent that I call “murky consent.” Traditionally, consent has been binary—an on/off switch—but murky consent exists in the shadowy middle ground between full consent and no consent. Murky consent embraces the fact that consent in privacy is largely a set of fictions and is at best highly dubious.

Because it conceptualizes consent as mostly fictional, murky consent recognizes its lack of legitimacy. To return to Hurd’s analogy, murky consent is consent without magic. Rather than provide extensive legitimacy and power, murky consent should authorize only a very restricted and weak license to use data. Murky consent should be subject to extensive regulatory oversight with an ever-present risk that it could be deemed invalid. Murky consent should rest on shaky ground. Because the law pretends people are consenting, the law’s goal should be to ensure that what people are consenting to is good. Doing so promotes the integrity of the fictions of consent. I propose four duties to achieve this end: (1) duty to obtain consent appropriately; (2) duty to avoid thwarting reasonable expectations; (3) duty of loyalty; and (4) duty to avoid unreasonable risk. The law can’t make the tale of privacy consent less fictional, but with these duties, the law can ensure the story ends well.

Posted on April 24, 2024 at 7:05 AM31 Comments

Comments

Ron Helwig April 24, 2024 8:51 AM

I don’t like it.
Start with why data even gets collected in the first place. I see two main reasons to collect data that isn’t absolutely directly necessary: advertising revenue and government control. Both are poor reasons to collect data.
Privacy should be the default, period. If anyone wants to collect more data than is strictly necessary they should have to show why it is needed and the users should have to explicitly accept it.
Making data collection painful to the end user is a good thing. That will make the incentive to allow extra data collection balanced towards privacy.

Andrew Duane April 24, 2024 8:55 AM

Isn’t #3 similar to what they had in the UK? I once heard it referred to as “Duty of Care”, similar to a fiduciary duty. They were required to “take care” of data and not allow untoward or unexpected things to happen to it.

As with many such nuanced proposals, I’m sure there are many devils lurking in the details. And of course those companies who make billions from our wild west frontier of data regulations will fight tooth and nail against it. I’ve come to grips with the fact that pretty much everything I’ve ever done, said, written, or visited is out there for people to use. Luckily I’m old enough that I really don’t give a damn any more, but I do have kids and grandkids….

adrien April 24, 2024 8:55 AM

That sounds a lot like legitimate interest to me. The issue with it being that companies have been calling everything legitimate interest, including e.g. showing you targetted ads. Companies have been tzlikg advantage of this without any actual risk.

I can maybe see murky consent work but everything should be made very strict from the beginning.

JonKnowsNothing April 24, 2024 9:03 AM

All

re:


* Because the law pretends people are consenting, the law’s goal should be to ensure that what people are consenting to is good.

* The law can’t make the tale of privacy consent less fictional, but with these duties, the law can ensure the story ends well.

Can someone explain:

  • “goal should be to ensure that what people are consenting to is good”

How’s that gonna work when the entire planet cannot define “good”?

How about reproductive rights in the USA? Is there a “good” murky consent there? afaik, in states that have near-nil reproductive rights “consent” isn’t even murky, it’s just taken, stolen, traded, weaponized, criminalized and doxed.

  • the law can ensure the story ends well

I have never heard of any story or report about legal proceedings where “the story ends well”. It always ends badly for at least one party. If you are convicted it’s definitely bad. If you are a forever prisoner, it’s seriously bad. If you are living in a place that someone else with lots of money, wealth and assets, decides they want your spot, it’s going to end up bad for you.

Murky consent might be the de facto status of consent but the mirage of autonomy is still important, especially in countries where 3Ls and Military decide if you have any autonomy left at all.

Murky consent would apply to all AI generated outputs where the person being ripped off, has given “murky consent” just by being a person.

I don’t get it.

Winter April 24, 2024 9:14 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

Can someone explain:

“goal should be to ensure that what people are consenting to is good”

It is called Consumer Protection Law [1]

Is a well developed area of law and works quite well. I understand it is not well developed in the USA. The result of the difference seems to be that US customers get a much worse deal than, eg, EU customers.

[1] ‘https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_protection

TimH April 24, 2024 10:29 AM

I take issue with “(4) duty to avoid unreasonable risk” for 2 reasons:
1. “Unreasonable” is too vague. Tmobile would argue that it is unreasonable to run their business with no risk of employees being able to sim swap for criminals, for example
2. There needs to be an executive level mandatory custodial penalty for unecessarily held PII being leaked. Need to prove a new customer’s identity, Mr Bank? Sure, but retaining that passport image beyond that validation is unecessary.

Marko April 24, 2024 10:34 AM

Consent. If I say no to a sex with a stranger at a bar, all I lose is the sex. If I say no to sex with my sugar daddy, I lose my allowance. Everyone’s a sugar baby to surveillance capitalism.

Winter April 24, 2024 12:53 PM

Express consent cannot scale.

In a certain sense, this is intentional. Under the GDPR, if express consent is not feasible for your thousands of downstream users, then you have no consent, and are not allowed to do what you want to do. Your business model is simply wrong, or rather, illegal.

Rather than provide extensive legitimacy and power, murky consent should authorize only a very restricted and weak license to use data.

I obviously do not understand what is meant here. But, if you collect PII from millions of people there are pretty few legitimate, ie, desired by the “consenter”, use cases where you would really need to address all these people personally. If you make the data non-identifiable (which is very hard, I know), most of the privacy problems go away.

So, if you want to sell data downstream, make them anonymous. If you can’t, don’t do it

duty to avoid unreasonable risk

Actually, I would consider those originally collecting the data to be fully responsible for everything that happens with the data. Even if they have long sold the data on and the wrongs happen downstream. That gives consenters a direct point to get redress.

If you take a risk with people’s safety, you should fully pay for it when it goes wrong. If you can’t pay for the risk, you are certainly unqualified to do whatever you did.

lurker April 24, 2024 1:03 PM

“Murky consent should be subject to extensive regulatory oversight”

The gummint imposing “duty” on people? It’ll never work in ‘Murrica …

Lucinda April 24, 2024 4:19 PM

“Privacy” is basically ‘data’ about you that you wish to ‘control’ and limit its communication to others.

in concept its similar to a personal “property right” of tangible things, like your toothbrush, bed, or car.
Common law firmly protects your right to control your ‘tangible’ physical property, BUT NOT intangible non-physical ‘data’.

Patent & Copyright Laws are exceptions, and do establish an ‘intellectual-property-right’ to some intangible data.

However, PATENT/COPYRIGHT has always been a chaotic mess, full of abuses on all sides, and a costly nightmare economically and legally.

Bottomline: legislators cannot even legally define “Privacy” and there is no rational method for the govvernment to intervene and ‘solve’ this issue for the public.

Erdem Memisyazici April 25, 2024 12:42 AM

I think it’s important to distinguish between subjective privacy and objective privacy when we discuss the subject. Simply including the distinction in your publications can sincerely help outline the issues at hand.

BCS April 25, 2024 7:44 PM

My concern with accomplish privacy via government regulation is that it will be functionally impossible to enforce those regulations without giving the regulators access to the data and I’d rather a business that wants me to continue to work with them have access to that date then a government which can require me to cooperate with them via force of arms.

What is like to see is for my personal data to be seen as a somewhat toxic asset. Something that people won’t want to keep around unless they have a specific compelling use case for. Maybe make civil damages rather harsh if I’m harmed as a result of actions a 2nd or 3rd party take with data that 2nd party collected about me unless they can show a compelling benefit to me that results from them keep that date.

echo April 26, 2024 8:38 PM

Both approaches fail. The evidence of actual consent is non-existent under the notice-and-choice approach. Individuals are often pressured or manipulated, undermining the validity of their consent. The express consent approach also suffers from these problems ­ people are ill-equipped to decide about their privacy, and even experts cannot fully understand what algorithms will do with personal data. Express consent also is highly impractical; it inundates individuals with consent requests from thousands of organizations. Express consent cannot scale.

Yet another reason why the US needs to get its head around having human rights law at a constitutional level and have it percolate through policy and practice to the point it’s normalised. I find almost all US based writers and thinkers don’t get this which is why they have so much trouble finding a point of view where they argue their way into believing they have squared the circle before failing spectacularly. This isn’t the first article or policy reference by Bruce which I’ve found dodgy because of this.

I think some US based people are beginning to get a slight clue. As per @Winter’s comment about US law not being developed in all honesty US human rights protection in law and at an institutional level is very crude or none existent which is causing a lot of Supreme Court and political problems currently, and I’ve noticed some Americans understanding this.

I had a ding dong with a lawyer who trained under one of of America’s most senior judges over bringing international human rights law into US law. They resisted because it was “settled law”. So was Roe v Wade and look what happened there. Then there’s the resistance to the International Criminal Court. I’ve learned the current resistance isn’t at a Presidential or foreign office level but in the US DOD.

There are some things Europe does which are simply better than the US. Sure, the US civil rights movement and other initiatives are very noteworthy and have had a lot of positive influence worldwide to varying degrees. I just think the US needs to onboard some things from where they are done better. It would solve a lot of problems.

Winter April 27, 2024 12:44 AM

@echo

I just think the US needs to onboard some things from where they are done better.

The US taking an example from others?

The Pope joining the Seventh-day Adventist Church sounds more likely.

JonKnowsNothing April 27, 2024 3:01 AM

@Winter, @echo, All

re: US enactment probability: The Devil went down to Georgia (1)

The historical and cultural contexts of the USA and other countries globally make the likelihood of USA adopting legal standards from other countries near NIL.

Our basic laws decent from English laws, but that ended in 1776. After that We Did It Our Way. And that way is not in accordance with anyone else on the planet. No other country sets up their system like we do. There maybe some aspects, but for the most part other countries know our system is FUBAR.

We do not have the legal or political infrastructure to make such adaptations. Anything we bring in, has to mold into a Murrican Version. After the Murrican conversion, there is little left to find of the original concept.

An example of how hard it is to separate out our mythos from our de facto legal systems, is found over on Marcy Wheeler’s site (2), which specializes in detailed analysis of USA Court Cases based on the legal filings. There are many knowledgeable folks posting comments but there is only 1 person with actual legal experience. Recently, there has been a falling out between the One and the rest of the commentators and the site moderators. The One has more thorns than a jumping cactus and is well able to spear the “mythos” from the “actual court system”. This does not sit well with the folks who believe the mythos is the way of the court system.

No matter how much the folks proposing “mythos” solutions, there is only the One tossing thorns into their imaginings. It’s not so much that the other are uninformed but we are woefully uninformed about how the courts work vs how we think they should to work.

So, while we might want to “think this is what should happen”, it isn’t going to happen because it has to fit into the Murrican Version.

When the Devil finished, Johnny said

“Well, you’re pretty good ol’ son

But sit down in that chair right there

And let me show you how it’s done”

He played “Fire on the Mountain,” run, boys, run

The Devil’s in the house of the risin’ sun

The chicken in the bread pan pickin’ out dough

Granny, will your dog bite? No, child, no.

The Devil bowed his head because he knew that he’d been beat

And he laid that golden fiddle on the ground at Johnny’s feet

===

1)
h ttps://e n.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Went_Down_To_Georgia

  • The Devil Went Down to Georgia” is a song written and recorded by American music group Charlie Daniels Band

A fiddle contest between the Devil and Johnny.

htt ps:// en .wi kipedia.org/wiki/Deal_with_the_Devil

  • A deal with the Devil (also called a pact with the Devil, Faustian bargain, or Mephistophelian bargain) is a cultural motif exemplified by the legend of Faust and the figure of Mephistopheles,

2)

ht tps:/ /w ww.e mptywheel.net/

Winter April 27, 2024 3:44 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

There maybe some aspects, but for the most part other countries know our system is FUBAR.

In another millennium, I was told by a law student about an international study where members of the public were given the details of real court cases and asked to predict the outcome. The American public was least able to predict the outcome, much less so than Europeans.

Regretfully, I have never been able to find that study. However, every time I looked at any application of the law in the USA, it has struck me that absolutely no-one will admit to have any idea about the outcome of a court case whatever the material facts and law are.

I have never seen this in court cases in any of the continental European countries. It can be that the material facts and law are ambiguous, but if there is consensus about the law and the facts, I rarely see surprises in the outcomes.

JonKnowsNothing April 27, 2024 1:40 PM

@Winter, All

re: outcome of a court case whatever the material facts and law are

While the One Prickly Pear from AZ might shoot a bunch of Cholla spines in my direction, I would hazard that the biggest problem is

  • We do NOT know what the law is

We know what we think the law is but we do not know exactly what the law says. It’s the mythos vs actual problem.

A poor summary:

We start with 2 root nodes: Civil / Criminal. They have completely different rules about how they function and what their function is for and how it is applied.

The civil branch is perhaps the easiest to navigate intellectually as it is contract law. Contract laws are well established and have a global history (trade). ElMusko found out that contract laws are absolute; it wasn’t how he thought it was. ElMusko thinks this branch will work better in Texas; it won’t.

The criminal branch is the one that drives headlines. It’s full of nuances and terminology not in the common vocabulary (see Latin).

This is replicated in each State (50 first nodes). Each state is different in every aspect; different rules, procedures and processes.

Next replicate the first nodes to all counties within a state. Some states have more counties than others so the widths of these node will vary. Each has its own rules and procedures.

Next replication is to cities. Some cities will have an aggregator court but the rules are by city. The width of this node is variable by the number of cities and number of aggregator courts. Each if these has its own laws, procedures and processes.

Within this entire matrix are legal representatives for contesting parties, specializing in specific case types, and payment structures. Cases represented by Officials are paid for by the citizens; everyone else pays out of pocket.

Then we come to the real odd ball in the matrix: The Grand Jury System. (1)

When I first learned about the Grand Jury System as a young person taking US Civic Classes in school, my jaw fell on the desk. It was one of the founding father’s biggest complaints about remaining Loyal English Subjects was their treatment under the English Courts Grand Jury version. Yet they included this as part of our founding system was just eye popping.

No one really knows much about this system other than the basics. It’s totally secret. It’s a kangaroo court. There is only one side presenting a case: the prosecution (ex parte). The people called to the court have no right to legal advice once they enter the doors to the room. The only thing I remember is this:

  • If you answer ONE question; you must answer ALL questions

You can declare Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination but that won’t help much.

From what little I know about it, there are no other courts in any country as bad as this one, except for US military courts which have their own entire branches of laws, procedures and processes and punishments for every branch of the military.

  • The law is not what you think it is.

===
1)

ht tps:/ /e n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_juries_in_the_United_States

Winter April 27, 2024 3:17 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

We do NOT know what the law is

Actually, it is impossible to know what the law of the US is.

There are more than 88,000 federal rules and regulations (since 1995), 30,000 statues enacted (since 1789), and more than 4,000 laws.[1]

Another publication [2] counts almost 50,000 federal laws.

It is not possible to know them all, let alone know and understand the case law needed under the US common law system.

It always amazes me when in some US lawyer movie a case is won by digging up some esoteric obscure case law no one ever heard of, not even the judge in the case. But these plot twist simply mean it is generally admitted that absolutely no one knows the law. And no one seems to care.

[1] ‘https://legalknowledgebase.com/how-many-laws-does-the-united-states-have

[2] ‘https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02758-z

JonKnowsNothing April 27, 2024 4:08 PM

@Winter, All

re: We do NOT know what the law is

On my matrix list of laws, I forgot to add on a separate branch for Federal Laws. Federal laws generally override State laws but SCOTUS is not aligned with how much Federal Laws extend to States (ROE).

Thank you for pointing that out.

re: US lawyer movies

These are fantasy made up Hollywood semi-propaganda (depending on circumstance topic and time frame) feel good movies. There is rarely any semblance between the movie and reality. It’s a formula movie, repeated over and over: good guy, bad guy, good guy kills bad guy 3 times which sets up the never ending sequel and spinoff.

  • Unfortunately a lot of people think such movies are real history and true
    • I saw a movie about that once…

(1) The Alamo is a 1960 American epic historical war film about the 1836 Battle of the Alamo produced and directed by John Wayne and starring Wayne as Davy Crockett. The film also co-stars Richard Widmark as Jim Bowie and Laurence Harvey as William B. Travis, and features Frankie Avalon, Patrick Wayne, Linda Cristal, Joan O’Brien, Chill Wills, Joseph Calleia, Ken Curtis, Ruben Padilla as Santa Anna, and Richard Boone as Sam Houston. Shot in 70 mm Todd-AO by William H. Clothier, it was released by United Artists.

Yes, 70mm Todd-AO was present at the battle of 1836 and John Wayne just morphed into the 20th century by time travel just in time for

(2) The Green Berets is a 1968 American war film directed by John Wayne and Ray Kellogg, and starring Wayne, David Janssen and Jim Hutton, based on the 1965 novel by Robin Moore. Much of the film was shot in the summer of 1967. Parts of the screenplay bear little relation to the novel, although the portion in which a woman seduces a North Vietnamese communist general and sets him up to be kidnapped by Americans is from the book.

Where he single-handedly defeats the entire North Vietnam Army saving the (undeclared oil fields) population.

Lawyer movies have about as much basis as these un-historical reenactment movies. (Of note: there are historical reenactment groups that adhere to the historical records of battle.)

(3) Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is a 1939 American political comedy-drama film directed by Frank Capra, starring Jean Arthur and James Stewart, and featuring Claude Rains and Edward Arnold. The film is about a naive, newly appointed United States senator who fights against government corruption, and was written by Sidney Buchman, based on Lewis R. Foster’s unpublished story “The Gentleman from Montana”.[4] The film was controversial when it was first released…

Americans like to think this story remains a core possibility. Dec37 puts a huge question mark next to that and SCOTUS is in the minus column on such issues.

===

1)

ht tps: //e n.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Alamo_(1960_film)

2)

htt ps:/ /en.wi kipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Berets_(film)

3)

h ttps:/ /e n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_smith_goes_to_washington

Winter April 27, 2024 4:32 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

There is rarely any semblance between the movie and reality.

My point was not the reality of the courtroom drama, but the fact that the public seems to believe it.

And I also know about real courtroom drama, the infamous OJ Simpson trial, where all of America saw how an obvious guilty murderer got off the hook with a charade with a pair of gloves. That must have made quite an impression about the criminal system.

Then the Sacklers getting away with killing more Americans than SARS.

The recent comedy about jury selection for Trump’s trial was also awe inspiring.

JonKnowsNothing April 27, 2024 5:31 PM

@Winter, All

re: televised live streamed live blogged courtrooms

This is a fairly new aspect to open public viewing of what takes place in a courtroom.

Most of the streams are ignored by the public and are only of interest to the participants, especially since C19.

There have “always” been high vis witch hunts that grab the public attention, not just in the USA. It’s something in our psyche of schadenfreude that makes us hope that the “dirty dastards get theirs…”. Sometimes it happens.

There are overlaps of cultural ethos that gravitate around such trials. What is acceptable in 1600 is not in 2024. The most horrendous miscarriages of legal process happen when cultural ethos interferes with the concept of legal process. At the time it’s hard to separate out the facts from the culturally accepted manners of the time.

  • The OJ Simpson trial was overflowing with cultural problems and the courts at the time were unprepared for the intensity of public interest. The Media TV legal advice was by and large incorrect. It was a lot of “what I think” mythos.

To examine this aspect recast all the names with non-entities and play with various gender and race configurations. In the USA at that time mixed race couples had a lot of negative push back. The majority of people having been born ~1900. It makes a difference with or without the gloves.

  • The Sackler Family bribes on a monstrous scale

About the only thing that is of similar magnitude was the British Opium Trade Wars to maintain British dominance as primary supplier. They got Hong Kong and free access to addict as many people as they could. The British don’t like being called out as Opium Trade Kings much now, but they certainly owned that title for a long time.

The British did their work with weapons. The Sackler’s used Austerity Libertarian Economic bribes to get their dominion. Billions of USD fed into the Global Health Care System in the USA, UK and EU. The MDs of today are the Drug Pushers for Global Addiction. Of course, they don’t like to be called out on it either. The Governments took bribes in ginormous amounts via “legal” taxation allowances direct and indirect.

The US Tobacco Industry had a free ride on the same principle. We eventually passed laws in the US limiting their influence here but gave open trade permission for them to wreak havoc in other countries by selling their products overseas. Not many are still looking at them.

  • Dec37 the courtrooms of the USA will be filled with drama until 2025 and beyond.

The outcomes of the court cases for Dec37 will be varied and the Last Singer won’t be on stage for many years. One can expect 30-50 years before it is “settled”. However, the same forces that drive Thousand Year Wars and Million Year Wars are still at work. It will never be settled.

Like the Irish Question, it is a question of time. Time is infinite. We are finite.

  • What kind of people are we
    • What kind of people do we want to be
      • What kind of person am I

When you are sworn into a USA jury pool, you take an oath to follow only what the Judge says it’s OK to follow. Everything else is jettisoned for that time and place.

The only overriding rule is:

The presumption of innocence is a legal principle that every person accused of any crime is considered innocent until proven guilty.

Under the presumption of innocence, the legal burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which must present compelling evidence to the trier of fact (a judge or a jury).

If the prosecution does not prove the charges true, then the person is acquitted of the charges.

While it’s a bit of a cliche now, as so much is promoted as Guilty Until You Prove Otherwise under our Global Surveillance System, it still holds in US Courts Federal and State.

  • Every person accused of any crime is considered innocent until proven guilty. Means ANY Crime, no matter what type or situation.

It’s a tough standard for many to hold to. Those that are honest about their views indicate that and are sent home. Those that can hold to the highest principle in the USA stay the course, no matter what.

===

h ttps :// en .wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

Winter April 27, 2024 5:53 PM

@JonKnowsNothing

Every person accused of any crime is considered innocent until proven guilty. Means ANY Crime, no matter what type or situation.

That is the rule of law.

But OJ Simpson being “unable” to put on gloves that were the correct size is courtroom drama that any professional would have dismissed. Extensive jury profiling and shopping (like done in many trials) is not a jury of peers, or rather, too much of peers. Judge shopping, or changing, as was done in the Tobacco trials is also not something to instill confidence.

And non-Americans know they have a snowball’s chance in hell to win a court case against the interests of American business.

JonKnowsNothing April 27, 2024 9:15 PM

@Winter, All

re: Court room tactics

There are all sorts of errors made in courtrooms.

  • The UK Post Office 25yrs of legal convictions based on false testimony by UK Officials, Consultants, UK Legal Representatives, which sent hundred or thousands of people into penury and imprisonment.
  • The USA Gitmo saga doesn’t end because the people exiled there are prohibited from touching “US Soil” as their cases would fall apart. They remain incarcerated under military laws and the endless cycle of US Military DO-OVERS where the JAG reassigns all the existing JAG teams and replaces them with new recruits unfamiliar with the cases there.

These maintain a fiction, one we know to be untrue but as they happen in a courtroom they are allowed to persist.

  • We allow the errors

Only under rare conditions does an error get the public notice. It lasts only as long as the public focuses on it. Yesterday’s news isn’t of any value; even if the condition has not changed.

re: The issue of “peers” is one of mythos not of actual context.

It doesn’t mean what you think it means.

re: non-Americans know they have a snowball’s chance in hell to win a court case against the interests of American business

A very astute view. You might want to extend that to anything “officially” indicated as to “support”. Lots of countries in Thousand Year Wars and Million Year Wars are expecting the USA will “come to their succour”.

It won’t happen…. unless there is something so valuable to offset the costs. There’s not much of that around.

iirc(badly)

During the Rwanda Genocide ~1994, then US President Bill Clinton, did Not Much. Like his predecessors and successors, Do Nothing is the active state. At one point, an agreement was made to send 2 ambulances to the area. Much hoopla was made about this great humanitarian gesture. The news faded, the slaughter continued.

Due to the hostilities, the ambulances where delivered to a neighboring country. They were to be driven across the border and used for medical support. More slaughter continued.

The ambulances never crossed the border. The slaughter unabated.

A recent MSM report indicated that currently there is 14 years of bomb laden rubble in UKR cities to clear.

  • Do you think the USA is going to do this for free?

We will sell you some very big bomb proof bulldozers to knock the rest of the cities to the ground. Then we will sell you some International Money Bonds at a handsome interest rate, so you can rebuild part of the cities. Only people with $500,000 USD will be able to afford the newest dwellings. They won’t be UKR citizens. The interest on the bonds will exceed the UKR GDP and impoverish the rest of the UKR for the next 100 years.

George Washington was a liar and a thief and a slave owner.

Winter April 28, 2024 1:26 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

Do you think the USA is going to do this for free?

The UK settled the debts of WWII to the USA in 2006.
‘https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/britain-only-settled-debts.html

I remember having read that the UK debt to the US for WWI was settled in the 1960s, but cannot find that again. These old debts were refinanced several times so it is difficult to disentangle.

The current plan seems to be that rebuilding Ukrain will be paid from confiscated offshored Russian money. That money is estimated to be ~$300B. Whether that will work out is an open question. If anyone else pays, it will be the EU. They have done so with all the Eastern and Southern members.[1]

[1] Investments for economic development pay off handsomely within the EU, both economically and politically. The UK learned the hard way that being inside the EU is much cosier than being outside.

JonKnowsNothing April 28, 2024 4:58 AM

@Winter, All

re: The current plan seems to be that rebuilding Ukraine will be paid from confiscated offshored Russian money.

The law is not what you think it is for confiscated assets. It’s a happy mythos propaganda line used by which ever side is holding the assets.

Consider: Looted Art

Over hundreds of years, countries have looted art from conquered nations. For nations that had embargo laws (Egyptian Antiquities) it did not stop the looting but it does not give ownership to the current holder. Most of this is sitting in the the major museums of the world. This is the visible end of the trail. A lot more sits in private collections that only surface at an auction.

Provenance, where something came from, has a long trail. It may take hundreds of years to unwind the false paper trail. Eventually it unwinds.

Consider: Confiscated Lands (1,2)

Colonial Europe was a great at taking land for their own based on Laws of Discovery. All you needed to do was plant a flag and declaim the lands belonged to the Kings and Queens of Europe. For the USA, we just took the lands: no declaiming necessary.

Land titles have long trails of provenance. Taking something that is “not yours by fiat declaration” does not end well. It may take hundreds of years to resolve. Eventually the mythos clears away and the actual laws come into play.

Assets forfeited during wars are highly subject to such changes. There are many methods to hide the source of the funds or to clean the title but it is a risky investment.

Consider:

  • Would you be willing to buy a flat in a building constructed with confiscated assets?

===

1)

h t tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadastre

  • A cadastre or cadaster is a comprehensive recording of the real estate or real property’s metes-and-bounds of a country. Often it is represented graphically in a cadastral map.
  • A cadastre commonly includes details of the ownership, the tenure, the precise location (therefore GNSS coordinates are not used due to errors such as multipath), the dimensions (and area), the cultivations if rural, and the value of individual parcels of land. Cadastres are used by many nations around the world, some in conjunction with other records, such as a title register.

2)

ht tps:/ /en.w ikipedia.org/wiki/Land_title

  • In property law, title is an intangible construct representing a bundle of rights in (to) a piece of property in which a party may own either a legal interest or equitable interest.
  • The rights in the bundle may be separated and held by different parties. It may also refer to a formal document, such as a deed, that serves as evidence of ownership.
  • Conveyance of the document (transfer of title to the property) may be required in order to transfer ownership in the property to another person.
  • Title is distinct from possession, a right that often accompanies ownership but is not necessarily sufficient to prove it (for example squatting).

Winter April 28, 2024 5:50 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

The law is not what you think it is for confiscated assets.

Actually, according to current law, the Russian money cannot be used for rebuilding Ukraine, it cannot be used at all. It is not even confiscated. However, laws can be changed and if a country engages in large scale war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and genocide, a lot becomes possible.

As the money is in places under the jurisdiction and reach of the Western alliance, we get into the realm of Possession is 9/10ths of the Law. And for a country that does not respect any law, Russia certainly do not have the moral high ground.

It is not like Russia had any problems with stealing everything they could lay their hands on. The Czars considered Russia and everything and everyone inside it’s borders as their personal property. Stalin and Putin did and do the same. Putin has not so much money or wealth, he has Russia.

C U Anon April 28, 2024 2:35 PM

@JonKnowsNothing, Winter, All

re: laws can be changed

“In the USA, no one cares about the evicted families. No one cares where the funding came from.”

Nor did they ever.

Never the land of the free, or opportunity, always the oppressed always lied to,

For a historical view,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wJiPehLzhUE

JonKnowsNothing April 28, 2024 10:22 PM

@C U Anon, All

re: parts of the history … not as well taught as it should be.

A vary salient point.

I cannot recall in School or University history classes ever being told that everything on the USA North Border are people who didn’t want to be part of the USA. Nothing at all said even when asked “Why is Canada not part of the USA?”.

Along with a swift change of subject about how many places are actually part of the USA or under USA control as territories or other nouns indicating the USA controls the place but the people there are not US Citizens.

  • Not many could tell you either.

At most a slight eye roll answer about indigenous peoples within the Lower 48 and no mention at all of the peoples of Hawaii, Puerto Rico with NoOne lives in Alaska.

It is fortunate that global trade, real paper books, and (previously) useful source such as Wikipedia (1) fill in the blanks intentionally left by official curriculum.

===

1)

HAIL Warning

The deluge of faux information barfed up by AI will be unstoppable. It will penetrate all sources and taint all repositories of knowledge. It does not matter which medium is selected, it will get mixed in.

Like adding a unsavory seasoning to a cake, one that makes the cake bitter. It will be in the recipe and all the clones of the recipe. With short duration archives and search engine optimization, the original sweet cake recipe will be lost.

Perhaps people will prefer a bitter cake. (2)

2)

In the Desert By Stephen Crane

In the desert

I saw a creature, naked, bestial,

Who, squatting upon the ground,

Held his heart in his hands,

And ate of it.

I said, “Is it good, friend?”

“It is bitter—bitter,” he answered;

“But I like it

“Because it is bitter,

“And because it is my heart.”

htt ps:/ /en.w ikipedia.o rg/wiki/In_the_Desert

  • “In the Desert” is the name given to a poem written by Stephen Crane (1871–1900), published in 1895.

Winter April 29, 2024 12:31 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

“Why is Canada not part of the USA?”.

Because they were French? And had only recently been conquered by the Brittons. They were also economically not integrated with the colonies in the south.

The story I heard was that the independence movement in the colonies only could start after the threat of a French invasion from the North was resolved.

But there were still French speaking people in the North who had no sympathy for the English speaking colonies.

JonKnowsNothing April 29, 2024 4:27 AM

@Winter, All

re: Canada is French with no sympathy for the English Colonies

I am pretty sure there is much more to it than this.

The USA had different relationships with France before and after 1776.

The Colonies provided armies along with the English armies during the French-Indian Wars aka 7 years wars. George Washington was part of that campaign and from some sources, his vanity was snubbed by the British Officer Class as he could not get a commission in the English Redcoat armies and was stuck in the lower class Bluecoat Colonial army.

However, the US would not have lasted out the 1776 war without the direct aid of France. Money, arms, treaties and trade where part of what kept up the war effort, funded by the French Monarchy (until ~1789), afterward by the French Republic(s). (1)

  • 11 July 1789, Lafayette presented a draft of the “Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen” to the National Assembly, written by himself in consultation with Thomas Jefferson.
  • [Lafayette’s Death ] In the United States, President Jackson ordered that Lafayette receive the same memorial honors that had been bestowed on Washington at his death in December 1799. Both Houses of Congress were draped in black bunting for 30 days, and members wore mourning badges. Congress urged Americans to follow similar mourning practices. Later that year, former president John Quincy Adams gave a eulogy of Lafayette that lasted three hours, calling him “high on the list of the pure and disinterested benefactors of mankind”. (2)

The USA has had cordial relationship with France over the long term.

However, the US knows little about the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. (3) It’s not mentioned at all in common curriculum. This battle was pivotal in eastern Canada.

The colonies were also the refuge for the Acadians purged from Canada by the British. (4) From this group we derive Cajun culture and Cajun food and Cajun language. Cajun is similar to French but is not classical French.

===

1)

ht tps:// en .wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War

  • French involvement in the American Revolutionary War of 1775–1783 began in 1776[1] when the Kingdom of France secretly shipped supplies to the Continental Army of the Thirteen Colonies when it was established in June 1775. France was a long-term historical rival with the Kingdom of Great Britain, from which the Colonies were attempting to separate.
  • A Treaty of Alliance between the French and the Continental Army followed in 1778, which led to French money, matériel and troops being sent to the United States.

  • An ignition of a global war with Britain started shortly thereafter. Subsequently, Spain and the Dutch Republic also began to send assistance, which, along with other political developments in Europe, left the British with no allies during the conflict (excluding the Hessians). Spain openly declared war in 1779, and war between British and Dutch followed soon after.

2)

ht tps:/ /en.w ikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_du_Motier,_Marquis_de_Lafayette

  • Marie-Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier de La Fayette, Marquis de La Fayette (6 September 1757 – 20 May 1834), known in the United States as Lafayette, was a French aristocrat and military officer who volunteered to join the Continental Army, led by General George Washington, in the American Revolutionary War. Lafayette was ultimately permitted to command Continental Army troops in the decisive siege of Yorktown in 1781, the Revolutionary War’s final major battle that secured American independence.
  • After returning to France, Lafayette became a key figure in the French Revolution of 1789 and the July Revolution of 1830 and continues to be celebrated as a hero in both France and the United States.

3)

htt ps:// en.wiki pedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Plains_of_Abraham

  • The Battle of the Plains of Abraham, also known as the Battle of Quebec (French: Bataille des Plaines d’Abraham, Première bataille de Québec), was a pivotal battle in the Seven Years’ War (referred to as the French and Indian War to describe the North American theatre). The battle, which began on 13 September 1759, was fought on a plateau by the British Army and Royal Navy against the French Army, just outside the walls of Quebec City on land that was originally owned by a farmer named Abraham Martin
  • General James Wolfe successfully resisted the column advance of French troops and Canadian militia under General Louis-Joseph, Marquis de Montcalm. Both generals were mortally wounded during the battle

4)

ht tps:/ /en.w ikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians

  • The Expulsion of the Acadians was the forced removal between 1755 and 1764 by Britain of inhabitants of the North American region historically known as Acadia. It included the modern Canadian Maritime provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, along with the U.S. state of Maine. The Expulsion occurred during the French and Indian War, the North American theatre of the Seven Years’ War.
  • Prior to 1758, Acadians were deported to the Thirteen Colonies, then later transported to either Britain or France.
  • Their land was given to settlers loyal to Britain, mostly immigrants from New England and Scotland. The event is largely regarded as a crime against humanity, though the modern-day use of the term “genocide” is debated by scholars.

Winter April 29, 2024 4:53 AM

@JonKnowsNothing

The USA has had cordial relationship with France over the long term.

Indeed, but by 1776, Canada (Quebec) had been British for 17 years. France itself had no power in Canada anymore. It did not help that the 1775-1776 invasion and siege of Quebec by American troops were not exactly a boon for the people living there.

It might have ended differently if the American invasion had succeeded in capturing Quebec immediately. But it seems the Canadians were not very fanatic anti-British revolutionaries to begin with (or they were outnumbered and outgunned by the English troops?).

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